Sour stout not sour
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I brewed a sour stout about three months ago. I pitched with White labs sour mix. I think sour mix 1. I made a starter and next time would not because Brett needs some stress, but this mix has sacc yeast as well so I assumed it needed a starter. After three months it has not formed a pelicle and is not sour tasting. I am brewing a sour belgian and it formed a pelicle, and is sour. I used Roselare yeast, also a sacc/Brett combo. I giving it until 4 months, and if no sour notes I'm pitching Brett. Any thought to the type of Brett? Or any comments on my plan?
  • jeepinjeepinjeepinjeepin
    Posts: 17,851
    Brett normally doesn't give sour. It lends leathery, earthy, musty flavors and aromas. Sour usually comes from bacteria, notably lactobacillus and pediococcus.
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  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Ok. Good to know. Any recommendation on lacto or ped to pitch?
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I read the label and it has lacto, ped, Brett and sacc. So a bit of everything. Could I just pitch another vile of that? I don't need it to flocc anymore really, just get sour.
  • jeepinjeepinjeepinjeepin
    Posts: 17,851
    Don't pitch Pedio if you don't have time to wait for Brett to clean up the mess it leaves behind. Oh yeah, never pitch Pedio without Brett. Lacto gives that tart sourness in berlinerweisse.
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  • jeepinjeepinjeepinjeepin
    Posts: 17,851
    Benvarine said:

    I read the label and it has lacto, ped, Brett and sacc. So a bit of everything. Could I just pitch another vile of that? I don't need it to flocc anymore really, just get sour.



    Depends, it might just take time. What was OG, FG, and IBUs? Lacto doesn't like much bitterness and I don't think they are terribly fond of ethanol.
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  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606

    Brett normally doesn't give sour. It lends leathery, earthy, musty flavors and aromas. Sour usually comes from bacteria, notably lactobacillus and pediococcus.



    I actually just reread the white labs list of yeasts and they have a few Brett strains that sour lambics, Flemish, sour browns, etc.
  • jeepinjeepinjeepinjeepin
    Posts: 17,851
    Benvarine said:

    Brett normally doesn't give sour. It lends leathery, earthy, musty flavors and aromas. Sour usually comes from bacteria, notably lactobacillus and pediococcus.



    I actually just reread the white labs list of yeasts and they have a few Brett strains that sour lambics, Flemish, sour browns, etc.


    Ok, yeah, Brett Lambicus will. It is still commonly used alongside of lacto and maybe sacch as well.
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  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 47,145
    i'd go with wyeast if you're able to get it.

    http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=147

    if white labs is easier/cheaper, i'd avoid the brett L in favor of their brett C

    http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/bacteria.html

    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 47,145
    Lacto is free. it lives on grain. Also, pellicles only form in the presence of oxygen. it may be that you had too good a seal on the fermenter.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I could go for spontaneous, but I'm not willing to risk it.
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    Benvarine said:

    I could go for spontaneous, but I'm not willing to risk it.



    not this time of year.
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    risky risky
  • Evan_BEvan_B
    Posts: 312
    A pellicle is only going to form if the bacteria/wort are exposed to oxygen. If you are going for sour, then I would recommend pitching Lacto as opposed to Brett. If you can't get your hands on a vial of lacto, you can always throw in some un-crushed malt into the beer. The malt has lactobacillus all over it. However, if the wort has fermented out to near completion, it may not pick up much more sour character. The way I understand it; pitch lacto before pitching sacc. for a very sour beer, or pitch sacc, and then pitch lacto a few days afterwards for a mild souring.

    I have been experimenting with souring wort with a sourdough started (just yeast and bacteria), but it is still sitting in the carboy.
    Amigo, lay them raises down.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 47,145
    it's always a good idea to feed lacto when you pitch it into an already fermented wort. just add some sugars for them to munch on, any kind will be ok.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I was also told they need oxygen. I pulled the airlock and shook them a bit and replaced. I'll see if that helps before repitching.
  • Evan_BEvan_B
    Posts: 312
    I don't want to overstep my boundaries when it comes to microbiology, but if I remember correctly Lactobacillus is anaerobic, at the very least microaerophilic. That being said, oxygen will not benefit the bacteria. I don't think it will inhibit, but it won't help them either.
    Amigo, lay them raises down.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    The yeast mix I used has Brett, sacc, pedi and lacto in it. If lacto does not need it, I believe some of the others might. Regardless it's an easy test for now. If nothing happens, I'll repitch in a few weeks. Right now the beer is just a light stout so to speak.
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    Evan_B said:

    I don't want to overstep my boundaries when it comes to microbiology, but if I remember correctly Lactobacillus is anaerobic, at the very least microaerophilic. That being said, oxygen will not benefit the bacteria. I don't think it will inhibit, but it won't help them either.



    overstep away. you are correct. oxygen actually slows down the growth considerably and with enough aeration, you can kill it.

    fyi, this is one of the reasons its so powerful for meat fermentation. it loves to operate sans O2.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    The next time I ferment meat, I'll keep that in mind, freak.
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    true salami and things like pepperoni are all fermented. or they should be. its what makes them tangy.